Follow-up to "This exercise has real world application!"

Submitted by John Stoltenberg on Mon, 2007-10-01 15:53.

Fascisti Movements in America

The following are my comments on questions raised concerning my Saturday, September 29, 2007 e-mail titled "This exercise has real world application!":

(1) I am not advocating any political or economic ideology.

(2) I am not being critical of individuals.

(3) I am being critical of the capitalist economic system and the pro-fascist faction of the American capitalist class.

(4) I am encouraging people to take an objective, skeptical view of our very mature American form of capitalism.

(5) I do realize that capitalism has its merits, but it also has very serious flaws and limitations.

(6) Most Americans are not aware of capitalism's flaws or limitations. They have been brainwashed by the capitalist news media, the capitalist education system, capitalist think tanks, the capitalist's government and the capitalist war machine to believe that there aren't any.

(7) My measure of the maturity of the capitalist economic system is the concentration of capital into the hands of a very small percentage of the capitalist class. In the course of over two hundred years the American capitalist economic system has concentrated most of the capital into the hands of a very small percentage of the capitalist class. Therefore, I consider it to be a very mature form of capitalism.

(8) If capitalism is allowed to it will, over a very long period of time, probably evolve in to another economic system. After all cannibalism as an economic system evolved into chattel slavery as an economic system, chattel slavery evolved into feudalism as an economic system, feudalism evolved into mercantile capitalism as an economic system, mercantile capitalism evolved into industrial capitalism as an economic system, and we do not have any reason to believe the economic/social evolutionary process has stopped with the advent of industrial capitalism.

(9) I do not have a crystal ball. Therefore, I do not know what sort of economic system will eventually replace industrial capitalism. It may be some form of socialism, possibly the form advocated by the Socialist Labor Party which in my opinion is the only socialist party advocating pure, unadulterated socialism, or something entirely different.

(10) Overlooked by all of the advocates of socialism is that our present culture can only support capitalism. It evolved with capitalism and, today, makes capitalism possible.

(11) Since our present culture can only support capitalism, and cannot support any other economic system, superimposing any form of socialism, or other alternate economic system, on this culture, is doomed to failure.

(12) Therefore, as our capitalist economic system evolves into another economic system the culture to support the new economic system must evolve along with it.

(13) What could happen is the management of capitalism is so badly bungled that it fails so many people that they become disillusioned with capitalism and try some other economic system long before there is a culture that is capable of supporting it. This is what I think has happened in those countries that have tried socialism or communism to date. Their experiment with socialism or communism was doomed to failure because the existing culture could not support it.

(14) Therefore, I am hoping for a long slow economic/social evolutionary process over a long enough time so that we have plenty of time to experiment to find out what works and what doesn't work. Also, to allow a culture to evolve that is capable of supporting whatever does work.

(15) I do think that our American capitalist economic system is in a very serious crisis and that the pro-fascist capitalist oligarchy, and their political elite, do not have any solutions to the problems in this crisis. As a result there definitely is a political movement to create a fascist military/police state to allow the fascist capitalist oligarchy to maintain their economic/political power through this crisis and beyond.

(16) The creation of a fascist state is the worse thing that can happen to American capitalism because it will not solve any of the problems that are inherent in our capitalist economic system, or any of the external problems that our capitalist economic system must cope with in order to survive. Further, it will halt the entire economic/social evolutionary process.

(17) In my opinion, the most serious inherent problem in our very mature capitalist economic system is the concentration of capital into the hands of a very small pro-fascist faction in the capitalist class which gives them the ability to create a fascist state.

(18) In my opinion, the most serious external problems confronting our very mature capitalist economic system are Global Climate Change and Peak Oil. These are followed close behind by worldwide depletion of water resources and worldwide species extinction.

(19) In my opinion, a very serious limitation of capitalism is it will only provide those products and services society needs if it can be done at a profit. Example: America capitalism has had over one hundred years, since Teddy Roosevelt first said that America needs a national health program, to rise to the occasion and address this national need. The fact that they have not supplied this need within the framework of capitalism indicates a serious limitation in the American capitalist economic system. Instead, to date, the American capitalist economic system has only provided health insurance to those people that can pay for it and provide the health insurance industry with fat profits. As a result, after over one hundred years, there are 46,000,000 people without any health insurance and 40,000,000 people with inadequate health insurance.

(20) By the way, overt and covert interference on a grand scale by capitalist nations were, and are, very instrumental in bringing about the failure of all attempts in creating socialist economies. Capitalist America has always lead the way in these efforts to destroy any attempts to create successful socialist economies. The last thing the capitalist world wants to have is a successful socialist state. That is a true socialist state and not a watered down version of capitalism, with lots of reforms that pass as socialism, such as exists in Scandinavian countries and existed in the United Kingdom.

John P.Stoltenberg, P.E.
N8362 State Highway 67
P.O.Box 596
Elkhart Lake, WI
53020-0596
920-876-2184
jpstolten@verizon.net

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THIS EXERCISE HAS REAL WORD APPLICATION!

Saturday, September, 29, 2007

Hi;

Suppose you had the responsibility to design an entirely new economic system to replace our present very mature American capitalist economic system. Suppose you started by listing the merits and problems, as you see them, of American capitalism.

The goal is to retain in our new economic system the merits of capitalism and eliminate the problems.

I would list at least two merits as follows:

(1) Capitalism can empower people with new ideas for products or services. That is it can provide them with the capital to get their new product or service to market.

(2) Capitalism has the ability to eliminate economically unjustifiable investments from the capitalist economic system. The way this occurs is via recessions or depressions.

I would list at least two problems as follows:

(1) Capitalism eventually concentrates most of the capital into the hands of a very small number of capitalists and their corporate entities. In our very mature American form of capitalism this concentration has created a capitalist oligarchy that has transformed our democratic republic into a de facto fascist state.

(2) Capitalism economically disenfranchises the working class which leads to politically disenfranchising the working class.

What are your thoughts? What would you put on the list as capitalisms merits and problems as a first step in designing an economic system to replace our very mature capitalist economic system?

Give some thought to how you could retain the merits and eliminate the problems?

By the way, this exercise has real world application. Our corrupt, failing, very mature capitalist economic system is overdue for a overhaul or replacement. It will be great if the capitalist economic system holds together long enough for normal economic/social evolution to slowly replace the capitalist economic system with an entirely different economic system. Unfortunately, we cannot rely on that happening. The problems associated with keeping our American capitalist economic system are so numerous and so overwhelming that the capitalist class and Corporate America are giving up on solving them, or even pretending they are trying to solve them. Instead, it is obvious that they will attempt to retain their power via a fascist military/police state because they cannot solve them.

Given that the only real beneficiaries of capitalism are giving-up on solving the problems associated with keeping capitalism functioning I believe that it will be in our individual and collective best interests to give some thought to what may replace capitalism.

John P. Stoltenberg, P.E.
N8362 State Highway 67
P.O. Box 596
Elkhart Lake, WI
53020-0596
920-876-2184
jpstolten@verizon.net

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17 points

you are old enough to have done something long ago

Submitted by forfunt1 on Wed, 2007-10-17 19:42.

look, if you mean to change something about how people live their lives, don't start by encouraging others to think of a way to do so because it only makes you look like a coward. You are old enough to have seen a lot of change in American society, and when you had your chance to alter the course of human events, you paused for thought and are still thinking to this day. If you are active, people will learn from your example; If you cant make up your mind on how to act, dont put the burden of resolving your own intelectual confusion onto others. Think about what is of interest to you; Act in the interest of everyone. Grow up. You seem like you have a few good ideas of your own. Why are you still thinking of complex solutions to a complex problem that will never be solved? Do something to change the REAL world!

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2 points

hmmm....

Submitted by forfunt1 on Fri, 2007-10-12 15:21.

Silence speaks louder then words.

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2 points

A few questions come to my mind.

Submitted by forfunt1 on Wed, 2007-10-03 18:41.

Are you on the fence about all political and economic ideology?

Are you unaware of the inevitable consequence of willful action?

Are you unaware that any will-full act can be assessed with reason for a positive (i.e. legal) effect?
The law exists for reason of will. Social will is the majority factor in the decision making process of citizens (i.e. civil individuals). Every citizens’ actions has consequence in a legal sense.
Do you lack the capacity to consider the human factor in favor of the greater whole? Are you more comforted by actions that favor your own will over the will of the whole? Do you consider yourself to be something other then a citizen?

If so, please do nothing.

Setting the public-standard-reasonable expectation depends on the equality of the active will of citizens. Words and actions import the significance of popular will considered to individual will.

As you write as if you have no opinion, I cannot help but wonder if you mean to imply that you are not willing to do or say anything for lack of concern for others. Harsh words will say nothing when used without meaning to speak, except to the ears of fools. Language lacks voice when nobody can hear who is speaking. I have never seen your face but I have a suspicion you are easily recognized as one of the many that are thinking about ways to fix a complex problem and doing nothing of consequence in consideration of the greater whole. I hope this is a temporary way; If you mean to play this life as a mind game, you are very unlikely to ever live free.

Are you on your side instead of the side of the greater good?

Are you still working to finance capitalism?

If so, do you feel you will stop only when you are forced to act against your will?

If you are not afraid of somebody forcing you to act against your will; Is this: A, because you are not a part of society, or: B, because you do not consider yourself oppressed?

If you were not able to answer affirmative to any of these questions:

How are you active on the side of the greater good? How do I help?

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About John Stoltenberg

About Me

Hi Darlene;

I am the third generation of a German-American family. Both of my grandfathers were socialists. My father was a member of the Socialist Labor Party (SLP) in the 1930s and 1940s. I am not a socialist, but I am well acquainted with the SLP's platform. I consider the SLP to be the only socialist party that is advocating true socialism and not capitalism with some reforms tacked on.

From my perspective we are on a long slow evolutionary path that involves the capitalist economic system eventually evolving into some other economic system. Also, it involves the culture that presently supports capitalism, and makes it possible, evolving into another culture that will be able to support the new economic system.
All of this will take place over many generations and will involve many small steps. The steps in the evolutionary process are the small reforms being made to capitalism to make capitalism more bearable for the working class. These reforms have the effect of slowly changing capitalism into some other economic system, and/or changing the culture that supports capitalism into a culture that will support the new economic system.
The fact that this is a slow evolutionary process is a positive. It gives society the time to experiment, and to learn what works and what does not work.
I do not know what the new economic system will be and I really don't care. This will be determined after generations of experimenting.
In the mean time, in my generation, I am dedicating myself to preserving our constitutional political democracy, our civil rights, the rule of law and the separation of church and state so that the evolutionary process can take place. In other words, I am concentrating on fighting the ascendancy of fascism in America.
John Stoltenberg, P.E.
N8362 State Highway 67
P.O.Box 596
Elkhart Lake, WI
53020-0596
920-876-2184
jpstolten@verizon.net
------------------------------------------------------
From: Darlene Denis
To:jpstolten@verizo.net
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:52
Subject: What is the Alternative?

"The best solution would be to replace the American capitalist economic system with an economic system that would not exploit people, destroy cultures, corrupt governments, plunder resources, etc. Of course, this is not going to happen in our lifetimes and, perhaps, for many lifetimes."
As long as the majority of people believe this to be true then it will be a self fulfilling prophecy. It is this kind of attitude that prevents our country from realizing universal equality, freedom & peace.
The only solution is to form & institute an entirely new government that does not exploit people, destroy culture, plunder recourses, corrupt/terrorize other governments, and respects the rights of all individuals to govern their own existence without any interference so long as they harm none but themselves.
Why is this the only solution? Because no two humans hold the exact same perspective, personal principles, values or beliefs, however, all humans should be allowed to govern their existence according to these elements without interference from others so long as no others are harmed.
But as long as people like you insist that it can never be, then it probably never will be.
Why do you believe we can not see this in our lifetimes. I will be 40 years old this summer, I have seen plenty of changes in the 40 years I have existed so far, I prefer to think that I may well around for another 40 years.......is 40 years not enough time to form & institute a new government that addresses & corrects for the above stated issues and failings of the current government?
If there are really that many people who truly want universal equality, freedom & peace, and end to war and violence, and end to discrimination, and so much more then why do we not take upon ourselves the one action that is virtually guaranteed to provide these things and so much more? My guess......FEAR & INSANITY!
FEAR of the current governments illusion of power to punish us when we oppose them with a real non-violent threat to their power.
INSANITY because we continue to allow this current government the power they need to accomplish the crimes they perpetrate against us and other nations, despite the proof that they lie, deceive, commit fraud against and ignore the will of the people
We have only ourselves to blame for the ongoing blood shed, wars & corporate/government corruption we see all around us, whatever injustice and inhumane action we see perpetrated/allowed by our government is ultimately our fault as we the people have allowed those committing these actions to remain in power. It is more than obvious to me that it is an exercise in futility to continue trying to force this government to do "the right things" by voting, protesting, petitioning calling emailing, writing, rallying etc. How long will it be before Americans understand that whether democrat, republican or other.....this democratic republic form of government is never going to solve all the problems our country faces, nor will it completely endorse universal equality, freedom & peace to all it's people & it will continue to wage wars & contribute to terrorism & insecurity as long as it remains in power.
Where do you think that the current government administration gets its power from? Do they have some "magic" potion, pills or spell that gives them this power? Are they "special", so special in fact that no average American could ever even hope to stop them? NO!
They derive their power from the people, people like you who are convinced that there is no way to stop them from continuing their path of destruction and enslavement! And they derive their core power from a core group of people who have unified for a common cause. Can't you see that if we did the same thing we would deprive them of this critical & vital necessary source of power and shift it to the people where it belongs!, where it has always belonged!!
Please reconsider your position that we can not see an alternative reality in our lifetimes and start acting to create that reality.
You can start by going here!
and uniting with us.
Respectfully Optimistic,
Dar
Awaken Me! website
Awaken Me! group
Co-creator, co-owner, moderator & manager

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